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Talk:Rapture Timeline
Suggestions This article is getting a bit long and maybe difficult to keep track of. In order to keep it looking nice I have some suggestions about any future edits: This article is for specific information as it occurs in the 1906-1968 time line. This means that you should avoid putting descriptions of what the "Something In the Sea" website looks like on a certain day. That information would go on the There's Something in the Sea page. For instance: Good information: -the date on which a letter was written or something was created -the date on which Mark Meltzer received certain information or made important discoveries -dates on which important events occurred Bad Information: -description of what papers/notes were shown on the SITS site on a specific day -speculation about what the editor thinks a certain object/paper mean Again, these are just suggestions. Feedback is appreciated.--Gardimuer 16:46, October 14, 2009 (UTC) Also, it might be a good idea to begin breaking up any information from SITS Phase 2 into categories based on month.--Gardimuer 16:51, October 14, 2009 (UTC) Timing error? I think there's a bit of a discrepancy. The newspaper found in Mark's office detailing the discovery of an adrift S.S. Nellie Bly has the date as 1968. However, the timeline here details that event in 1969. I don't know if it's because SitS jammed so much into the latter part of 1968, a simple mistake in the amount of time that had passed when adding events to the ARG itself, a dating error on SitS's part or if it's something with the wikia. Should we just leave it as is or make some kind of effort to sort things out? Rapture-Stingers-QB 21:01, April 9, 2010 (UTC) :As is stands, the year on the newspaper appears to be an error. There are other documents on the site in 1969, if I remember correctly. We list how it should be, though... :That brings me back to my whole argument that Cult of Rapture listed one date for a new article, but it was actually another... Aw, I should stop remembering that. ~''Ṃᶒɠą§ɔîéɳčę' [[User talk:MegaScience|{ '''talk }]]'' 21:06, April 9, 2010 (UTC) ::Alright, gotcha. I went back to the site for nostalgia and due to the possibly Bioshock-related letters being sent out. I remember the date discrepancy on SitS bugged me the time it first showed up and today just reopened that itch. Rapture-Stingers-QB 21:14, April 9, 2010 (UTC) :::Actually, I am pretty sure that there are no documents labeled with a year in the entire Phase Three of SITS, besides those final two documents which mark it as 1968. The only reason we thought it extended to 1969 is that one of the folders in Mark's archives on the boat used to be labeled "Jan 4-13" Here is the reasoning I left on another talk page: :::"The date SITS ended is confusing, mostly because of some oversights the website developers made when planning it. Up until January 29 all of the folders in Mark's archives on the boat were labeled by date. (You can see the original date labeling in the headings on the Mark Meltzer Writings page.) Before the labels on the folders were changed there was clearly a folder marked "Jan 4-13" for the beginning of January. With this evidence it becomes clear that the website developers originally intended that Mark's timeline of days match our own in the real world, but for some reason they changed this at the last minute so it would fit with the idea of Mark arriving in Rapture before the events of the second game. (BioShock 2 could have occurred in 1969, actually. The intro cinematic says "10 years later", but considering that the cinematic happened during the 1958 New Year's Eve Party the events of the game could be on January 1st.) :::If we accepted that Mark's timeline is parallel to our own and ending in February of 1969 then it would be easy to tell what date each event occurred on, but revising the timeline to make it fit with ending in 1968 could involve checking every single document of SITS to see which ones can be pinned down to specific months or days. That is the main reason the timeline hasn't been changed yet." ~'Gardimuer' [[User talk:Gardimuer|{ ʈalk }]] 05:01, April 10, 2010 (UTC) As opposed to ....? Not trying to be a d!ck, but this is a "chronological" timeline, as opposed to ... some other kind of timeline? Should it be "Bioshock 1-2 Timeline", so that "Bioshock Infinite" might have a different one (if they aren't same universe), or if someone wants a "Game Development Timeline"? : 13:14, August 20, 2010 (UTC) :I think it's opposed to the points in the game where you learn each bit of Rapture's history. For example, the Civil War and Jack's creation all take place before the events of BioShock, but you only discover those bits through flashbacks and Audio Diaries. Same with BioShock 2: you only get to learn about how Lamb survived for the last ten years by picking up certain Diaries. --Willbachbakal 13:56, August 20, 2010 (UTC) : Infinite has nothing to do with the Rapture Universe (or any other real one if you go by their ignoring basic physics) I dont see anything from Infinite here anyway. ::You have a good point. Considering BioShock Infinite is (most likely) going to take place in an entirely different universe of cannon (according to some interviews with Irrational Games representatives) this article should be renamed something like "Rapture Timeline" to avoid confusion. ~'Gardimuer' [[User talk:Gardimuer|{ ʈalk }]] 01:35, August 21, 2010 (UTC) :: Bioshock Infinite? Someone wrote in the edit comments "It is in the same universe. Ken Levine said so at Gamescom." I'm pretty sure we have a link saying the opposite. What's the deal on including Infinite in this timeline? Or renaming it as mentioned above? : 18:49, August 26, 2010 (UTC) The page's name Since BioShock Infinite has now its own Chronological Timeline's page, this page should be renamed "Chronological Timeline (BioShock & BioShock 2)" or "Chronological Timeline (Rapture)" or something else so there won't be any confusions. --Pauolo 20:36, August 26, 2010 (UTC) :My personal suggestion is that we name each timeline by its setting to avoid the annoyance of a long string of game names and parenthesis in the title. I suggest "Rapture Timeline" be the name of this one, and "Columbia Timeline" be the name of the one for BioShock Infinite. ~'Gardimuer' [[User talk:Gardimuer|{ ʈalk }]] 21:34, August 26, 2010 (UTC) ::I agree with you, that seems the better way to name it. Pauolo 21:37, August 26, 2010 (UTC) :::I agree too. Perhaps a disambiguation page called "Timeline" with links to all of the above would help. ::: 00:59, August 27, 2010 (UTC) Am I the only one who noticed this? If Rapture is so secret and Andrew Ryan stresses secrecy within the city, how do all who came to Rapture know of it in the first place? Did Ryan like put in an ad in the paper or something saying "Hey, I built a really cool underwater city, so everyone who is smart and rich come on in!" --- He (and his organization) searched out people who he thought would be interested and didnt disclose too much detail until it was more certain about them. Many people who came to Rapture still didnt realize it was as much as Ryan had implied. Those people then knew other like minded people. Incongruously, Ryan's letting a collectivist like Lamb in made no sense and his vetting process should have been more than enough to turn up her beliefs to have him immediately reject her (but the almighty plot cant have that, so blah...) Testxyz (talk) 09:37, December 1, 2013 (UTC) Please revise the TIMELINE content Most of the SitS minor details should be moved to a seperate timeline as they clutter out the more significant events. It might be interesting and all but it has little to do with the history of Rapture Also the Minervas Den events apparently are missing "The events of Burial at Sea begin. Private Investigator Booker DeWitt is hired by Elizabeth to find his daughter Sally." Timeline needs markers to indicate events from BAS which may not be considered Canon. Is there some way to colorize the SitS content (to differentiate it) as its shear mass clutters out significant BS1/BS2 events ??? Testxyz (talk) 11:32, November 19, 2013 (UTC) :What the heck is wrong with you? Butchering a talk page with lines or whatever wikia code I never use isn't gonna get you an answer. On the contrary, asking active editors will have more results. To answer your question about SitS, well the page's title can induce in error, as it considers all events happening in the timeline where Rapture exists, not just concerning directly the city, hence why the SitS events are being referenced here. In order to limit the page's length, I will see a way to add a hide/show button for SitS-related content starting from 1967. That way it will be clearer I guess. :Now for Burial at Sea, I'd honestly prefer not to add anything related to this DLC on this page and the Storyline one, at least until the second episode gets released. I have my theory regarding if this story is canon or not to the first two games, but well it's just an opinion, not fact (you can read it at the end of Darkman4's talk page if you want). :Pauolo (talk) 13:36, December 1, 2013 (UTC) :This browser based editor often does weird things on reediting (Ive seen it do this before with an initial Publish looking one way and after edit (no change) and Publish again it has decided to rearrange/remove/add line seperations, etc...) and I was actually cleaning up extra blank lines from one of my previous postings. Looked OK to me after I did a Publish so maybe it also looks different depending on the browser you use. :Note - I had also edited the section ABOVE this edit section and added a Userstamp, so who knows if that had anything to do with what you see on your browser. :The History dif view is also misleading as it doesnt show a red block (left side) where an entire line was removed and leaves the big gap on the right with no shading differential. :As for : :"The events of Burial at Sea begin. Private Investigator Booker DeWitt is hired by Elizabeth to find his daughter Sally." :Thats IN the Timeline right now at December 31 1958 and my comment is about whether the BAS stuff likewise might need some special indicator. :Testxyz (talk) 16:25, December 1, 2013 (UTC) ::Well you should only edit in "source" mode, the other one is what causes those "Rich editor" errors you might have heard about on wikia and truly sucks. Still I understand you rely on this mode for now, but go check some pages in source mode, it's not that difficult to learn by examples. ::Now for that line referencing BaS and the other one in the 80s which you missed, there is a way to color texts so that we can point at what's happening outside the main timeline. You just need to go check how to do that in wikia code, there's plenty of tutorial for that. ::Pauolo (talk) 17:22, December 1, 2013 (UTC) United States drops an atomic bomb on the Japanese city of Hiroshima. Sofia Lamb survives the bombing but loses all her friends in the explosion: So she was a prisoner there or a collaborator ? The way prisoners were treated in such a situation could possibly go a ways towards explaining her demented philosophy (radiation poisoning warping her mind might also be a factor). Oops: 1958 - Elizabeth possessed by Booker runs into Sofia Lamb and 'accidentally' guns her down. Suddenly a Timelord arrives to hand out a Infraction Ticket for interfering with timelines of past Games. They board the TARDIS and Elizabeth finds herself in the 'tear-proof' lockup on Gallifrey. Testxyz (talk) 09:02, February 25, 2014 (UTC) 1958 Big Daddies are commissioned for creation by Andrew Ryan to carry out maintenance on the city May actually have existed well before this time. As 'Protectors' is more evidence specified in-game as correct, but for maintenance BD (or rather some other term, as BD name was coined for LS bond) may have been around for several years (would be a way to employ those driven criminally insane by ADAM abuse - rather than have them warehoused at public expense - at least that being the public story told by Fontaine Futuristics). Special plasmids/ttonics for pressure in what are basically canvas diving suits More time compression by the storyline revisions... 1958 - "Tears begin appearing throughout the city, capturing the attention of many scientists, specifically Suchong." So now Suchong (including his interactions with Fink and Columbia) has to work on all the things now attributed to him in the ~3 months before New Years Eve , and upto the BaS2 events. The Tears appear, and Ryan gives it to Suchong who works for him (thus the Fontaine Futuristics takeover already has taken place after Fontaines death), and he gets to work ... It was already a bit over-crowded before the BaSx stuff came along. 1956 Edit Undefined Date July 12 ??? need s cleanup Ie- is Jacks creation under that date ?? Unspecified Date :Rapture suffers economic distress precipitated by cessation of city construction.(The End of the Line Prentis Mill talks about major economic distress and end for the AE) (Around 1951 City is sealed off, no new imigration, decline in city construction) :The Atlantic Express is bankrupted. :Eleanor Lamb is born in Rapture. ↑The above has been the subject of repeated debate. I argue that it should be removed for the following reasons: 1. This timeline should be reserved for known dates that majorly impact Rapture. An "Unspecified Date" section just looks sloppy. We NEED specific dates when they are available (example, "RAPTURE Nov 5 1946 ONE MAN'S VISION MANKIND'S SALVATION" on the monument from the Welcome Center or Nina Carnegie's New Year's Eve message), but sometimes we can only go by logical assumption made using credible testimony on absolute events. For example, Arcadia's total closing logically took place at some point in 1959 as things escalated, though we can't say precisely when. To my immediate knowledge, the three point above don't have a precisely stated date. The 1952 recession is a TOTAL ASSUMPTION without any conclusive evidence behind it. The Atlantic Express did go bankrupt, but when? Eleanor Lamb was born in Rapture, but do we so much as know how old she is at the start or end of BioShock 2 or is it just an assumption that she was 6 when Delta died? 2. This should be reserved for the most impactful dates in Rapture's history. I don't see why it's worth noting the AE's bankruptcy. The Bathysphere lockdown is one thing as it seriously impacted citizens' individual freedoms, but the AE is just one of many Rapture businesses that failed (what make this one so special that it's worth noting?). Similarly, Eleanor is one of many Rapture children born in the city. If we really don't know how old she is, then there's NO point in including her birth date. She really only becomes important (sorry if that sounds harsh) on New Year's Eve when she's captured by Sofia Lamb. 3. As for the supposed 1952 Recession…where's the proof? If this was REALLY a thing, it'd be a HUGE event in Rapture's history, yet surprisingly no one clearly talks about it anywhere (maybe that's b/c it didn't happen!!!!). Two audio diaries are repeatedly put forth as supposed evidence of this event: Prentice Mill's Just a Fad and The End of the Line: :Just a Fad: :There would be no Rapture without me. No city without the Atlantic Express. Ryan took his first grand tour on my flagship coach! But these days, personal bathyspheres are all the rage. My rails only connect the oldest parts of Rapture now, and the city's just... just left me behind. Plenty of cash in the bank, though. This private vehicle craze will blow over soon. :End of the Line: :This is it. It's over. I built this railroad from nothing... played by Mr. Ryan's rules. But then he asks me to sink my own cash reserves into the banks to give Rapture some breathing room, and now... now Austen God damned Bathysphere wants to buy me out. Decommission the entire rail! I have no family... and no time for friends. I am the Atlantic Express... and this... this is the end of the line… I see nothing conclusive about a date to a recession in these. I think that it could easily be assumed that Ryan asked Mill to put his money into the bank after the incident at the Kashmir (an real economic slump that someone else talked about). At the very least it poses a possible alternative. With this reasonable doubt, should we really be putting this uncertain recession on the timeline? Unownshipper (talk) 01:46, August 3, 2014 (UTC) :- :1) Could be "Unspecified Date Around 1951-1952" I would have but it looked clunkier. : :Your example about Arcadia Closing -- it hasn't a fixed date does it ? :""'WE ARE THE SATURNINE!' Cult Crazies Close Arcadia - Ryan Vows Retribution as Religion Comes to Rapture...''" - Rank 25" :So it could have happened in 1960 ? We dont even know what part of the year that Jack arrived (Arcadia Closing was before then, but still leaves it open to supposition, so can you really even say 1959(for arcadias final closure) ?) :So that is an example of something else (amongst many?) which will need to go if you want to tighten the known date criteria as you suggest (I prefer allowing approximation and show the general flow of events which give indicators of Rapture changing across broad time.) :All we will be left with (date exact) is SitS stuff and those BaS LoonyTunes dates. :2) Most impactful. Again sweep away about 2/3rds of the Timeline then (and all of the SitS stuff) :3) ~1951-1952 Recession -- Consider its an educated guess as to typical real world patterns with hints from what Mill says. ((( And IF you want to eliminate such 'supposition' from the public part of the Wiki then you'd best get started because about 1/4th of the wiki then needs to go. ))) :My Suppositions theory (The Economic Distress in 1951-1952 timeperiod) : :Economic downturns happen because a major industry largely stops (ie-Rust Belt and Car Industry Detroit) :City construction (a Rapture 'big industry') would likely slow down/virtually stop when the inflow of people into Rapture ceased (closed off ~1951) Whatever trade happened with the surface up til then (except smuggling) also ends. :A good size workforce suddenly has no income and the economic effect snowballs with panic adding to the effect. (in the Microcosm of Rapture there is no 'west' to head for or regional variations which can absorb that put-out population.) :Sideeffects - Mill's AE goes bankrupt (possibly fewer customers, but probably had had alot more viable competition by then ) and alot of his Money put into failing banks when asked by Ryan (no money to prop up his RR). Thats a SECOND big industry to close up adding to the unemployment. :With lowered consumer spending other weak businesses also fail. Available Investment Money dries up. :1952 Austen Streamliner indication of a well developed industry - isnt that a sign of the Bathysphere 'craze'/'fad' Mill talked of being well under way that early. (Note that may push the 'collapse' happening into 1952 rather than 1951). :--- :I will turn it around and show '''when this Didn't Happen (the events Mill speaks of ) :You suggest during the Kashmir Incident fallout (Second economic panic) ? :Too late - City is heading into War Situation - Normalcy IS gone - soon there is NO economy left other than emergency measures and a (eventual) Bathysphere lockdown would be the nail in the coffin for 'normal economy'. :One does not talk of a 'waiting for a craze to end' as if it were normal times when people at the same time are being slaughtered wholesale in the streets. :Bathysphere system had become Rapture Metro (the citywide Rapture Transit Authority) - Kincaide probably consolidated many smaller Bathysphere and Trolley lines (its a historic pattern) making a more flexible/convenient system than the AE was. That takes time and would have taken place BEFORE the AE bankruptcy/shutdown (to replace it). NOTE - we see Rapture Transit Authority on the Lighthouse entrance (Bathysphere) trip to the Welcome center (a big stationthere and the connecting transit mall) -- but why would THAT be there AFTER Rapture was long cutoff from the surface ?? (So its long before 1958 ??) :Paupers Drop Shanty town - said AE workers, but also poor people 'under the tracks before that (ie- Grace)? Out of work AE? likely because otherwise working men can afford real appartments for their families. :Remember that 'Shanty' town was BEFORE it turned into the remains we saw (BS2), which WAS some kind of organized redevelopment (simulated NY city buildings) -which BTW takes significant time to accomplish) AE is (long?) abandoned for that redevelopment to work(otherwise the AE owns the property). Sinclair always looked for a 'good deal', so wouldnt he to build his large "Hotel" use cheap construction labor available after the city construction ended and on abandoned/cheap property ? :Grace has a nice job in the Limbo Room (the redeveloped Paupers Drop, whgere swanks from Fort Frolic come slumming) and then talks about bombs going off in Kashmir and the panic/banks/Limbo closing, etc.. THAT place was not the original Shanty Town she refered to as "worse than the Hoovervilles..." (which I would interpret as years earlier when it WAS a real shanty town 'under the tracks' back when the AE was being built (largely in the 40's) :- :When else then -- the between time ? :Period when Dedication of the Pneumo (Ten Years anniversary 1956) - hardly seems a time for the precipitating events - rather more like a celebration of Recovery. (Ryan footed the bill - a strange bit of 'Altruism' - though public works do boost economies - and it probably was profitable anyway) :Around that time ADAM was taking off - would anybody have the money to waste on it if the economy was horrible and people had to tighten their belts (and it is pushed as a "use at work", consumer type thing more appropriate to a growing economy). :So again you can take it all as conjecture and supposition, but to me it des seem like ther Economic distress that Rpature passed through was earlier (midway) in the period befroe the Kashmir Incident. :And if you want to eliminate it, then lets get started sweeping every other bit of conjecture/supposition/opinion/uncertainty from this Wiki's main content. : 03:58, August 4, 2014 (UTC) ::- ::Good God, what is this? A word-based war of attrition? Fine, I'll play my part: ::In regards to point 1, the Arcadia instance was simply an example of why something was placed on the timeline when the precise month/day was not known. Arcadia and Fort Frolic's closing were stated to be done as a matter of public safety. These events must've occurred relatively early on into the war when people were still easily moving about the city, so it seems unlikely that the order would've been delayed for a full year. ::: ' Restrictions/curfews/security installed before that point ? Keeping it open is a sign against the reassurances Ryan is trying to impart on the Citizens (we hear a public announcement about that...)' ::: ' Full Closed state might have been 1960 (with plenty of time before Jack arrived)' ::: ' Its not specified so cannot (using your criteria) label it 1959 ' ::In regards to point 2, I don't think it'd be 2/3 of the material being wiped, but, in any case, I have no problem with seeing any trivial information removed. ::Note however, that I listed this criteria below the exact date criteria. Anything with a known date ought to stay while the non-exact rest can be left out if it doesn't make a huge difference to the story (for example, we don't just have a list under 1959 of "so-and-so died"). The SITS stuff can (and should) stay as it'd be utterly pointless to create at SITS Timeline article and we have a pretty nice system in place already. A single business closing or an individual girl's birthday are NOT needed, ESPECIALLY when we don't have an exact date for either. ::: ' Big business (or two) that would send a shock through Rapture's whole economy and the birth of a key figure (Sofias grand delusion continues focused on her daughter...) We know Eleanor is around 6 or 7 fo her to be paired with Delta/BD (which is why it would be under some 'around this year' header.' ::: Thinking again of Graces comments -- "worse than Hooverville" - would Ryan have let in so many feeble people who would seek pauperhood so quickly when the city was going gangbusters while it was being built without some intermediate economic event driving them to that state ? Grace seemed well recovered from it by Kashmir Incident time. ::In regards to point 3: Let me say that I understand your theory behind the idea of the economic recession. ::An economic slump following an underwater city's cut off from the surface, end of immigration, and end of a construction boom is understandable in concept. It's logical, it's metaphorically historical. However, that's not to say that it HAS to happen or that it DID happen here. At the end of the day, this is just an educated guess with little to NO evidence from the game. ::As for the individual aspects of your theory: ::A. The AE Train system certainly stopped expanding (there's no doubt about that) putting a lot of laborers out of business, but how can we be sure that other aspects of construction ended? ::There's a line under 1951 on the Timeline that reads: (Presumably) Rapture is finished. Andrew Ryan cuts off contact with the surface. Where's the proof of this notion that Rapture is "finished" (whatever that means)? Let's skip that question for a moment and ask "Why did Ryan cut off contact with the surface?" Was it b/c Rapture really stopped expanding or was it b/c the city was at a point where it was self-sustaining? ::The latter option makes sense as, by 1951, Rapture would certainly have the oxygen, energy, and food-producing systems in need to take care of itself. The city would have the means to produce and assmble the raw materials it needed, so there'd be no need for surface supplies. So say the core infastructure and bare necessity buildings are done by this point, we still need construction to help expand this brand new city. More office buildings and apartment complexes need to be assembled for the burgeoning businesses and expanding families, more caves need to be carved out for crop space, more biodomes (or whatever) need to be built for living space, etc. Jacob Norris (the archetypal Rapture laborer) isn't comlaining that he's out of work, he's advocating for better labor rights for Rapture's constructionists. So…I refute your notion that there was a construction end. :::::cutoff = construction major decrease :::::All those prefab of buildings mentioned (likely/surmised earlier but confirmed in BaS) and if not that then all the construction materials which are needed for continuance of any significant construction. :::::Tunnels for some expansion I would surmise, but are not really mentioned anywhere in canon. :::::I explained elsewhere you dont get steel (aluminium ?) and concrete from the seafloor or igneous volcanic rock (certainly NOT with anything but horrendous expense) . SO materials cant be 'cutoff' yet for any significant construction (and worker employment). ' :::::'Somewhere else I mention most 'construction' workers (in Rapture) are (more skilled) technicians and machine operators - even deepsea divers are skilled specialists. With prefab being done elsewhere (surface) THOSE workers never come to Rapture -- maybe dont even know much about its existance. Once the bldg shells are watertight it is then interior work by carpenters/electricials/plumbers/plasterers/masons/mechanics -- craftsmen. Skilled/motivated (Rapture type people) tend to be better able to transition to different jobs - which would probably be part of the plan - the eventual end of construction employment for those workers. :::::The building construction has to be done BEFORE people move in, ditto for businesses/industries/producers to get running before their capacity is able to be used (for self sufficiency). Until then the cutoff cannot be done (people can starve to death in 2 weeks) :::::Sure, there would be planned slow growth for internal population increase, but any needed construction for that is a magnitude less than to set a viable self-contained city for X thousands of people (20K in the novel) in ~5 years (think how many small boats (even tramp steamer) trips it took to bring that many people and all the personal/work goods to Rapture - Bathysphere would have been running Night and DAy from the Lighthouse) and those people ARENT going to be wanting to be kept for months/years in the equivalent of refugee camps while their residences/workplaces are still being built. :::::Repair work still would go on (from the start) requiring some workers, but the unionist sounding (yeah Ryan would let many of THEM in) Jacob Norris we see is post-Kashmir and possibly the Civil War economic disruptions/wreck then put him out of his job and THATS what he (now a Splicer) is ranting about . :: ::B. Prentice Mill's AE seems to have gone out of business not b/c no one was travelling but b/c everyone was travelling and wanted their own method of transport. Like VCR losing out to DVD, the newer, better product won out. ::Austen Bathysphere, like AE, is a transportation business (one uses self propelled submersibles, one uses a monorail). It appears that the Bathyspheres Jack uses are utilitarian or public models (think taxi cabs) while the ones seen in BAS are individually owned and stylized for consumer needs. The Austen Steamliner of '52 seems less like a private sportscar and more like a bus for many passengers, so this was rreleased when the comp. was still focused on public transportation. Bathysphere won out b/c it was capable of adapting and catering to the individual while AE could not. ::: The Austen Steamliner of '52 picture says 'best of the year Luxury Sub' (public transit is rarely 'luxury') - I am implying that THAT shows a 'personal bathysphere ' for that Mill mentioned "craze"/"fad" was started that early (enough for a contest between multiple companies/models in 1952) ::: AE was like a subway system (or lightrail) a major artery when people really need buses (or, in our world, autos). Smaller bathysphere/trolley/peoplemover/elevator companies probably also existed in local areas to fill in the difference. ::: The Bathyspheres seem more high end (premium service by look of the stations- even the mundane taxi ones Jack uses) and I would say a extensive trolley system would have carried the bulk of customers (like cities today where parking is limited/taxis too expensive and more people use public transit (equivalent of buses) Also submersibles are terribly more complicated/need more facilities/labor than a consumer grade car). Consolidating those smaller systems to make something better connected and convenient (efficient = cheaper) was logical (happened to bus and trolley systems in real world - often into municipal systems). ::: Mill says he cant prop up his AE (like some improvements) now to compete better against Austen system (made better by consolidation?) as his Cash is largely gone because of Ryan's Bank Infusion Request - 'breathing room' for what .... nothing ?? No thats what you do for an economic crisis. So these are all tied together. ::: So if not as early as ~1952 when logically does this happen ?? upto 6+ years AFTER Bathyspheres are already a 'craze' (and how can it be a craze if they are useless without the extensive docking facilities EVERYWHERE to make them useful rather than some rich persons toy in which case it wouldnt have stolen the AEs business) SO big changes and time to have all that infrastructure organized/working. We dont see AE or its reused space in BS1 (new better part of city) so its long gone, replaced by Rapture Metro ::: SO how soon before Kashmir do YOU think this all took place - extensive Rapture Metro system Running to driving the AE out of business? 1 year before Kashmir 2 3 ? If there were bad economic times that Mills alludes to, would anyone afford to be be buying Fontaines ADAM products? ::C. Really love this notion that the Kashmir incident occurs and BOOM, within a week it's the end of civilized society. What makes you think that Just a Fad was recorded after the Kashmir incident? It could'v been made in 1958 or possibly even before then, so yes, he could've been recording it under "normal" times. With that in mind, I don't see a need to specify another time as the Post-Kashmir recession works fine. ::I'm really trying to be civil here, but interjecting the Pauper's Drop slum VS redevolped area debate into this conversation is just frustrating/unprofessional when that in itself is an ongoing seperate discussion on supposition. ::: Seperate issues : ' ::: '- 'Week' is your assumption. I figure things got continually worse (Kashmir just the start). But read Graces Closing_the_Limbo_Room to see what sudden impact such things can have. Economic Panic and Civil War with riots and death in the street (in relatively short time span whatever it was). ::: '- I assume Just a Fad Took place in 1952 when the Economic Distress happened Ive theorized as a whole seperate part of Raptures history. its connected to The_End_of_the_Line as a follow on account.' ::: The Paupers Drop thing is part of the whole pie. Slums/unemployment caused by bad times. (circa 1952) lead to its old shantytown state. AE out of operation/decomissioned so its open to squatters. Sometime later Sinclair (and investors?) see the need for 'cheap' housing' (even people still working get impacted by bad economic times) and using slump for cheaper labor to get it built sometime in the between times - and the whole area is upgraded . ''' ::: '''So you are saying it wasnt redevelioped at some time ? So a Favela shantytown (ex industrial maintenance facility) somehow got built into a semblance of downtown manhattan using milk crates and cardboard by itself (we see it run down from THAT state by BS2 8+ years after that . ::: Again its all part of the whole flow of economics in Rapture - ::We need to always remember that the Rapture History is not a smoothly flowing and continuous narrative, it's a patchwork tapestry or a wall assembled with rows of differently sized bricks. There was the inital story outlined by the makers of BioShock, then the continuation and reworking by a different team under BioShock 2, and finally the retconning/finer detailing with Burial at Sea which had many (but certainly not all) of the ::What I'm trying to say is that different people added on their unique ideas which casued some logical problems in the grand scheme. That's not to say that one is canon and the other isn't, just that there are continuity hiccups along the way. So OF COURSE The Lighthouse has the Transit Authority logo on it. The AE was NEVER a part of the original game's idea! More importantly, you're assuming that the Rapture Metro/Transit Authority only formed/was named after the AE was consolidated. ::If there really was an economic recession earlier on, then the creators (of Bio2) would have made a big freakin' deal out of it. They'd have put in the necessary details to ensure that you'd know about it and this debate we're having now wouldn't happen. ::I'll never understand this mindset of "a small quarter of this Wiki contains supposition, so it's okay for me to add more." We need to work together to weed it out not add more to it. ::Unownshipper (talk) 22:48, August 4, 2014 (UTC) ::I have to try to find details mentioned in the Rapture novel - not as 'canon' but as an indicator that the author of that picked up a similar feeling of this previous economic event -- a gap in the story (something about Ryan saying that he expects some problems that need to be worked out and something about people still doing things the surface parasite way that they havent got used to Rapture philosophy fully yet.) :: 10:39, August 6, 2014 (UTC) BioShock: Rapture Information? I'm wondering If we should add information from BioShock: Rapture? I know its not canon, but there is some juicy information in the book. And don't we usually put the book icon next to the info if its just a small section? Shacob (talk) 13:38, August 3, 2014 (UTC) Dates of Events not certain (putting things under 1959): :Dionysus Park is flooded in what is deemed by the newspapers as a 'cult-related' incident. :Could have happened earlier than 1959 :Siren Alley becomes the city's red light district when it's residents suffer from the bank crash. :Could have happened MUCH earlier (like as fallout of the previous bank crash that is being debated 1952-1954 ... Masons Quarter tied to city construction period) :Bill McDonagh is executed after a failed assassination attempt on Ryan's life. :All publications cease distribution due to Security Order 217. :Probably (likely) happened later ~1960 after civil war going on for quite some time :Should be under more indeterminant headers : 01:12, August 7, 2014 (UTC) Persephone is sunk down into an ocean trench by Lambs followers, destroying the prison. We don't know this happens. We flood the section we are in and get onto the 'Lifeboat'. (that last explosive pile was in a connecting tube to the lifeboat and should have turned Lamb into hamburger before it possibly could have 'took out the last support' to send Persephone down to its doom) The whole blowing up supports thing could just be Sofia playing mind games trying to coerse Delta/Eleanor. 01:24, August 7, 2014 (UTC) Tears and Elizabeth's arrival in Rapture. We know from Suchong's Audio Diaries and even a Public Address Announcement that there are Tears forming in Rapture. The question is, did the Tears show up before Elizabeth arrived or did they only start happening after she arrived. And that Elizabeth is in fact the cause of the Tears in Rapture. All of Suchong's logs come from dates after October 14th. We know that Elizabeth arrives in Rapture on Oct 8th or before. sm --Solarmech (talk) 08:22, October 29, 2014 (UTC) :Although it's not specifically stated, we know that tears are not a natural phenomenon. If they were, Booker, the citizens of Columbia, and people of Rapture wouldn't have been surprised to see them (clearly they are though or else there wouldn't have been the PA announcement or kinetoscope urging calm). :Clearly Tears only form in relatively close proximity to Elizabeth, i.e. they show up in the city of Columbia, but probably not in the city of New York. Therefore, we must assume that they come with Elizabeth's presence and thus did not appear until she showed up in the city. :Unownshipper (talk) 07:10, October 30, 2014 (UTC) ::This is true up to a point. But we have to remember that Tears go both ways. While Elizabeth was still in Columbia and a tear formed to Rapture, would the people in Rapture be able to see it? And maybe even figure out what it was? Don't think we have enough info on that. sm --Solarmech (talk) 11:55, October 30, 2014 (UTC) I don't think her presence only was the cause of Tears appearing in Rapture. From what I know from the various diaries in BaS1 and one of Frank Fontaine's (mis-dated) in BaS 2, Tears had to be present before September 1958 considering Suchong already had prototypes of Vigors before Fontaine's vanishing. As for why Fink was only observing Rapture in 1958, perhaps catching Rapture was a coincidence and he couldn't try opening the same Tear at a different year without the risk of losing that reality. I truly think that the Lutece's trans-dimentional device and the Tears it provoked were really experimental and not specific at all. Pauolo (talk) 19:03, October 30, 2014 (UTC) :Just going back on what I said, what if Suchong was working on drinkable Plasmids before he caught Fink spying on him? We know that he didn't get to work on them long enough because of Fontaine and that they were unstable, possibly because he wasn't using use Fink's method.Pauolo (talk) 22:43, October 30, 2014 (UTC) :Better re-read Product Recall again. (I think they meant Spet 1 in that not Nov) They were recalled do to using 10 times the amount of ADAM needed compared to the injectiables. Not because they where unstable. While it's certainly possible that Suchong had been working on drinkable plasmids, it's clear from the Audio Diary (Oct 20th) that he stole the drinkable part and several vigor formula's from Fink. Wait. Suchong was hired by Ryan on Oct 17th. ARGH. They screwed the dates up. To much conflicing info here. sm --Solarmech (talk) 12:25, October 31, 2014 (UTC) ::That's also what I thought about those dates (September 10 and not November 1st). I didn't mean that these "special" Plasmids were recalled because they were unstable, just that Suchong didn't have the right drinkable formula back in September 1958, which caused Ray Lardner to jump from a stable state to Frosty Splicer in a matter of hours/days. Anyway does that mean that Suchong started working on it after spying back on Fink through Tears or just that his researches led to possible drinkable variants, high on ADAM but not necessarily using an oxidizing agent like Fink's? Fink could have just improved on this formula when Suchong didn't have the time to bother with it, and Suchong stole back Fink's researches once they were done and ready for release. You can say that the whole tear business was even more profitable for Suchong, because Fink used his own laboratories to develop the scientist's ideas on a far longer time period than he could. I still keep that Tears appearing in Rapture occurred for only 3 months at most, while they did for nearly a decade in Columbia. Using this to his advantage, Suchong really had a second, faster laboratory and team working indirectly for him. You can also say that he didn't bothered going through all the difficulties Alexander had with the Alpha Series because Fink did that for him. Pauolo (talk) 13:05, October 31, 2014 (UTC) Dates regarding Fontaine's Department Store Before anyone ask, I added a few dates regarding the department store according to audio diaries found in both Burial at Sea 1 and 2: *First, I think November 22 looks like the most accurate date for the store's closure and conversion into a prison. None of the audio diaries recorded before that date seem to have been from prisoners or people trapped inside. Also Suchong's last recorded diary (Imprinting Roadblocks) was on November 19th. *Next date, This Atlas Guy shows that on December 10 Atlas was already in control of everything down there, including the crazy Splicers. I guess it wasn't only with nice talks. *Now here comes the controversial part. I've added December 23 as the date Sally was sent to Fontaine's by Cohen, because of his audio diary Critics which, if the date was not a mistake, could have not be found at Fontaine's unless Cohen went himself to the store on that day or after. The next two points will confirm this theory. *On December 24, Atlas still has control over the population down at Fontaine's, according to Atlas Provides. *On December 25, Splicers storm the Manta Ray Lounge, which means that Atlas could not control them anymore. Why? A personal theory (which I will not write about outside the talk pages) would be that Cohen was to provide a Little Sister to Atlas in order to produce ADAM at the store and keep the Splicers in line with their fix. Whether the girl escaped before or after the assault, there's no certainty, only that Atlas was actively looking for her in order to regain control of the situation. Anyway, feel free to comment on these dates or any others regarding the post-events of Burial at Sea. Pauolo (talk) 22:51, November 3, 2014 (UTC) :If Cohen had personally visited the prison it raises some interesting questions about what Cohen knew and when he knew it. Helping Atlas is a sure sign that he was turning against Ryan. I find it likely that Cohen bought smuggled in good from Fontaine and there is enough information to make we wonder if Cohen knew Fontiane and Atlas were the same person. (Many of Atlas's supplies have a black hand on them.) Also I think there is a good chance that Sally escaped during the assault by the splicers an the Manta Ray (and as a result of it). sm --Solarmech (talk) 07:51, November 4, 2014 (UTC) Lockdown Ended? There seems to be a question if the lockdown ended after Jack killed Fontaine. Let's look at the evidence. First of all we have Booker using a Sphere at the end og BSI. Unless post credits Booker made another trip to Rapture (in 1958-1959) I don't think he would be among the ones cleared for thier use. If there was still a lockdown, Lamb probably wouldn't have had torpedos ready for Sammy Fletcher. As a note the sphere he used seems to have been one repaired by Carlson Fiddle in Ryan Ammusements and didn't have the genetic lock on. Fontain moved around the city easily enough and you can bet he was not on the approved list. Fontain really had no reason to keep the lockdown in place since it would slow done his efforts to get as much ADAM as he could before he left. We really have no evidence to show that it was on after he took over. As for people using the sphere's to leave Rapture? The spheres are battery powered and have a VERY limited range. Maybe a couple of hours running time at the most. You are not going to get very far from Rapture in one of those. About all you could do would be to get to the surface and hope someone hears your SOS. Which there isn't a very good chance of unless you go ahold of a radio set that could transmit on the correct frequencies. sm --Solarmech (talk) 13:30, December 1, 2014 (UTC) I have to say that it is really obvious that the lock-down was ended after Ryans death, how else would Mark Meltzer enter the city, Sammy fletcher try to escape, Porter use one to escape, and Tenenbaum use them to send little sisters to the surface. As for you point about the spheres not being able to allow people to leave Rapture, there is a lot of evidence that goes against that. For one at the end of Minervas Den we see tenenbaum and Porter have used the bathysphere to escape and even reach a beach somewhere. At the end of burial at sea we see how tenenbaum sent little sisters to the lighthouse using them. And even both endings of Bioshock 1 show jack and splicers reaching the surface. I know it might of been hard for survivors to reach the mainland via bathysphere but imsure many took thier chances then stay in the city. Night at the Kashmir (talk) 16:32, December 1, 2014 (UTC) The Bathysphere 'lockdown' may have been more story (to disuade people from trying) and allegedly there were alot(?) of private ones. Half the system may have been hacked by BS1 and people may have figured out that just getting to the lighthouse 300 miles from land might not have been overly useful anyway. Who knows what Fontaine/Atlas did as soon as he got control (and he seems to have moved about as we chased him towards the endgame). 07:42, February 9, 2015 (UTC) Hypnotize Big Daddy The release of the Hypnotize Big Daddy Plasmid is listed as being released to the public on an undefined date in 1959. I don't think that's possible. Elizabeth finds a poster advertising the Plasmid saying it's "coming next year." However, that doesn't mean 1959. What if that was put up last year (ie, coming out in 1958)? After all, it's not like someone added that poster after the place had been sunk. On top of that, the Hypnotize Big Daddy Plasmid is used on Subject Delta in the Adonis Luxury Resort. Does its user look like a scientist who'd been working on it and thus would have access to it ahead of time? No, he doesn't. I think it was already released, Liz just wasn't aware of it. Unownshipper (talk) 06:45, December 30, 2014 (UTC) Unknown date 1959-1960 "Dionysus Park is flooded in what is deemed by the newspapers as a 'cult-related' incident." Shouldnt this be earlier - Poole sold Eleanor to be turned into a LS (or just an ADAM producer) and he drowned Dionysus to cover up his squanderings. Sophia gets Eleanor back from being a LS before its even 1959. Grand Opening party (all the banners) doesnt fit with chaos in Rapture and it didnt sound like Poole would wait very long for his drastic coverup. Newspaper story seems more Pre civil war. 22:33, February 8, 2015 (UTC) :The Grand Opening banners are out of place because Poole used Dionysus Park for more than a single party in order to spend out Lamb's funds. Also I always believed he flooded the place after Lamb escaped from Persephone and recovered her daughter, explaining easily his growing paranoia. It's also easier to hide a crime under another (a cult-related incident) and during a great turmoil (the civil war). Pauolo (talk) 23:20, February 8, 2015 (UTC) :To be 'artsy' they might have had 'Grand Openings' every week (why not...). Its possible that the rich people would party as the city was imploding and nobody seems to have gone to the trouble to fix the 'leak' and recover the bodies/building/art/use of the RR station. : 07:32, February 9, 2015 (UTC) ::Stanley was in charge of the park, so yes I don't think he'd give a damn about its stability. Btw the original plot for this level had a clear decadent view of these parties (with splicing being a recreational drug), which were supposedly still taking place in 1968 in a version of Dionysus Park preserved from the war. Pauolo (talk) 19:01, February 9, 2015 (UTC) ::Concepts shift. But I could see Sophia (in the game plot) besides using the ADAM as her 'carrot' reward to faithful/obedient followers (versus her usual killing of people as her 'stick') OR more importantly to her project - she needs 'memories' to put into her Utopian, so scenes of 'church' members 'volunteering' to be channels for 'the larger good' more formal than the few Vent Shrine scenes, with ADAM being ceremonially applied for that purpose (singing hymns to the coming Lamb, etc.. THAT mightve been a very strange scene). :: 23:32, February 9, 2015 (UTC) Did Rapture Cut Off Contact With The Surface In 1952? I am seriously wondering if they did. The listing on the Timeline has no reference and there is some evidence that Rapture was still in contact and allowing people and maybe even goods into the city if only in a limited fashion. In Burial at Sea - Episode 1, "Booker" asks Elizabeth “What brung you to Rapture?” If Rapture has been cut off in 1952 then Elizabeth would only have been in her early teens, still a minor and Booker seems to think she’s a relatively new arrival (which she is). Also there are a number of songs played during the game that came after 1952 (unless they ripped the song off through a tear like Albert Fink did). Of course it’s clear no one was supposed to leave Rapture, but it seems a little difficult to believe that Ryan wouldn’t allow a few “special” people in when they came to his attention. Of course it's not enough proof, but enough to start thinking about it. sm --Solarmech (talk) 20:38, November 23, 2017 (UTC)